Continuing a Fictitious Conversation

Conversation Continues . . .

In the same quiet café, Jerry and Bob, two good friends, gather once again for their weekly breakfast conversation about their lives, family, church, and their own unique growing edges.  This week, they continue to pursue a conversation which began the week before (see previous post) about some books Jerry has been reading, the questions they are raising, and how they relate to his spiritual life.  Breakfast has already been ordered, and a few updates shared.  We join their conversation already in progress . . .  

Bob  I can see by what you've said already that these books really have been unsettling for you.

Jerry  You're right about that.  After our conversation last week, I was thinking that I had things pretty well in perspective . . . and I think I did . . . but what I did not expect was that there would be so much more.

Bob  More than just the practice of reflecting on God's graciousness at the end of the day that we talked about last week?

Jerry  Oh yes, much more!  That was just the beginning!

Bob  So what are some of the other concerns?

Jerry  I don't think we have enough time here this morning to touch on all of them.

Bob  Well then, give me an example or two.

Jerry  OK, to start with, there is this practice called "lectio divina" that the books I am reading say is infiltrating the church everywhere and leading people astray.

Bob   Oh, OK.  I am familiar with that practice.  It is a way of reading scripture that literally means, in Latin, "divine reading."  I am not sure I would use the word "infiltrating" in connection with it though.

Jerry  Yes, it is a Latin phrase, the language of the Catholic Church, which gives you a clue about it's origin.

Bob   Well, to be more accurate, it was the language of much of the scholarship at the time  that we begin hearing about lectio divina being used. It was not exclusive to the Catholic Church.  But, many church documents from that era were indeed written in Latin, so I guess that should not be too surprising to find a Latin label for the practice.  As I recall, it was used a lot in monasteries, and much of the scholarly material there was also in Latin, or perhaps Greek.  While Latin sort of came to be the "official language" of the Roman Catholic church, it was certainly not limited to the church at the time.

Jerry  But lectio divina was used by people at monasteries, right?

Bob  Yes, it was one of the ways that those who came to the monasteries studied and reflected on scripture.

Jerry  Yes, and that is what they say makes the practice so dangerous.

Bob  Because it was used at a monastery?

Jerry  Well, yes, because, for one thing, that means it has Catholic origins.  But is is also because it is such a mystical practice.

Bob  Catholic origins?  Well, I suppose you could say that.  Of course you could say that about pretty much any religious writing that happened in church history up to the reformation, because, aside from a few relatively small groups of believers here and there (and of course scholars tell us there were other diverse Christian communities all over the place too), in very general terms  "catholic" is kind of a blanket term that describes most Christians at the time.  In fact, up until the Great Schism of 1000 AD when the church leadership split between Rome (Roman Catholics) and Constantinople (Eastern Orthodox), pretty much everyone was considered "catholic" since the word simply means "universal."  Even the reformers that came later on thought of themselves as "catholic" until they broke away from the church.

Jerry  Well, OK, so maybe it doesn't make much sense to use the "catholic" label that way, but what about the "mystical" part of the practice?  Doesn't that sound a bit concerning to you?

Bob  I guess it depends on what you mean by "mystical"  I mean, simply being someone who believes in a God that is real and at work in the world makes you "mystical" on some level, doesn't it?

Jerry  I suppose . . . but the way the term is used in the books I've been reading . . . they use it to refer to people who are going off into strange trances, or having out of body experiences, or encountering spirits of some sort, or engaging in some kind of eastern mysticism, or being led astray by some kind of inner subjective experiences.  

Bob  Well, that sounds interesting, but I am not sure what that has to do with lectio divina.

Jerry  The books say that is what it is all about

Bob  Really?  Maybe there are some "mystical type people" (in the sense they are using the word) that may practice things like lectio divina or other things that look like it, who have experiences like that, but that is not what the way the practice is used today by any Christian groups I know of . . . and I know of quite a few . . . and have actually read a lot of their stuff about it.

Jerry  That's sure not how they make it sound in the books I'm reading.

Bob  Which makes me wonder if the people who are writing those books have really taken the time to talk with the people who actually use those practices today, or have really, carefully, studied them, so that they fully understand what they are talking about.  Sometimes it is easy to read into things, ideas that you think are there when in fact they are not.  Talking with the real people, or reading things in context in many places today is becoming an endangered skill!

Jerry  So, you are saying, that lectio divina is probably not a dangerous thing to engage in?

Bob  Do you even know what lectio divina is?

Jerry  Well, not exactly . . . I mean, not beyond the way it is described in what I am reading.  What exactly is it?

Bob  In a nutshell, it is simply a way of reading scripture that invites you to pay attention to what the passage is saying, and what God might be saying to you in the passage.

Jerry  Doesn't sound too dangerous so far . . .

Bob  You think?

Jerry  Go on . . .

Bob In the classical way it was practiced it had 3 or 4 parts that can be summarized as follows:  Reading (that's the "lectio" part) in which you slowly and reflectively read (or listen to someone read) a passage of scripture through several times; Reflecting (sometimes referred to "Ruminatio" or "Meditatio" ) in which you sort of "chew on" whatever seems to be impressing you about the passage you are reading (sometimes this is seen as two steps, other times they are combined); Resting or enjoying the sense of being with God as you do this (sometimes referred to as "contemplatio" which is what we get the word "contemplation" from); and then finally talking to God about what you are getting out of the passage ("oratio" or oration - what you might say or speak in response).  That is the basic "pattern" of "lectio divina."  It's not all that complicated or particularly mysterious - and the parts don't even have to happen in any particular order - or all of them happen all of the time.  

Jerry  Well, that doesn't sound like anything too troublesome, although the Latin words might be hard to keep track of.

Bob  Well, since you don't speak Latin, you probably don't need to worry about the words.  In fact, a lot of people who find this kind of practice helpful don't use the language at all.

Jerry  So, if I understand this right then, all we are talking about is taking unhurried time to read scripture, reflect on what it means as we try to pay attention to what God might be trying to communicate to us in that passage, sitting with it awhile as we enjoy being with God, and then talking with God about what we have learned?

Bob  Yup, that's about it.  Although, there are a lot of variations of the process that you will find in how it is used.  For example, some have structured it as (1) Reading scripture through once, paying attention to what you seem drawn to in the passage (2) reading it through again, this time noticing any feelings or emotions that you notice associated with what you are drawn to, and then (3) reading it a third time, this time paying attention to what it is that God might be calling you towards or inviting you to consider from reading the passage.  That's another variation on the practice, but the basic movement is the same.

Jerry  Yeah, I can see that.  Basically, its taking unhurried time to be with God in scripture, noticing what God might be wanting you to see there, and then responding to what you are learning - all the while doing so realizing God is with you in the process.  Doesn't sound like there is anything very sinister about that?

Bob  Nope.  

Jerry  Then what is all the hoopla about?

Bob  There are lots of reasons that people get concerned about things.  Sometimes there are "issues" behind the "issues" which are not obvious or may even be unconscious, that drive concerns like this.  Sometimes it might be because of a previous bad experience that was of such a nature that they now read that experience into others that seem similar, but in reality, may not be at all.  Sometimes it might be because something is practiced by someone they don't like or disagree with for other reasons and so it becomes a matter of guilt by association.  Still other times, especially if they think a conspiracy of some sort is involved, people can begin to see connections between things that are really not there.  They may know just enough to connect things together that seem to be similar or related, but may not know quite enough to fully understand the things they are connecting, and in the process wind up distorting or misconstruing things, sometimes smearing the names of people connected with these things in the process.

Jerry  And I suppose the more you think there is a conspiracy of some sort at work, the more anxiety can get injected, and that can raise the level of intensity to the point that people stop really listening to each other, and only start listening for things they want to hear . . . kind of like what often happens in political conversations.

Bob  Yes, and pretty soon it's not about listening and understanding each other any more, but simply asserting the point you want to make, without much regard to the damage done in the process.

Jerry  But, something else I wonder about, is whether or not this is a good way to read scripture.  I mean it sounds kind of subjective . . . like the text could be wind up saying just about anything.  Shouldn't we be concerned about solid background study, context, meanings of words, and stuff like that, rather than just about how the text may impress us?

Bob  That is an excellent question, and one that gets at the heart of how a practice like this can be misused.  The answer is, "Of course we should!"  What people sometimes forget is that this practice arose in the context of monasteries among scholars who were doing the best they knew how to do just that.  Lectio Divina is not a practice that replaces careful Biblical study, or even contrasts with it - but rather, you bring the best scholarship and information you have with you as you engage the practice.  The better you know and understand the text and what it is trying to say in its own context, the more clearly we can hear how God might like us to see how that text applies to our lives.  Good scholarship actually helps us to hear more clearly!

Jerry  Oh, so it is not "either or," it's "both and"!

Bob.  Exactly!  Of course there is a difference between entering into an academic conversation (which is primarily focused on information) and a personal one (which is mostly focused on getting to know someone and being responsive to them as a person) . . . all you have to do as ask your spouse, and they can tell you the difference . . . but information and careful listening do not have to be antagonistic to each other, they actually can enhance each other.

Jerry  Yes, that makes sense!  But you know, on another note, some of the books I've been reading do point out things about people who use things like lectio divina that I really don't agree with.  What about that?  

Bob  Well, that is really nothing new either.  People always explain what they are doing in the context of what they believe.  If, for example, I believe that when I die I go immediately to heaven, when I am sharing what is on my heart at a funeral service, I will probably make my comments in a way that reflects that belief - because that is the only way I know how to explain what I am thinking.  If however, I believe that when I die I rest in God's loving embrace until the resurrection morning when I am raised to life again, any comments I make  will very likely reflect that belief for the same reasons.  But we already know this, and make these mental adjustments all the time when we are talking to and listening to each other - appreciating the point or idea they are expressing even if we would explain it a slightly different way.  Which is why, however much we may disagree or think differently about the state of the dead, we can still find great value in the funeral service itself as we meet together to mourn our loss, celebrate a life that was lived, and look forward in hope.

Jerry  It really would be sad to refuse to take part in a funeral service, or see funerals as part of some sort of deceptive conspiracy, or be afraid of them, simply because people explained things differently, or because we did not fully agree with everything that everyone there believed.  That would kind of be like throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

Bob  I agree.  But now that we have solved another of the great issues of life for the day, there are some other issues I also need to get to before too long.  (Bob picked up the check while Jerry went through his pockets to summon up enough money to leave as a tip)

Jerry  Yes, I need to get going too.  But I am glad we've had time to talk.  There are so many more questions I have from these books . . . maybe we can get to them next week.

Bob  Sounds good!  

After praying together, and leaving a generous tip, Bob and Jerry parted company for the morning, though they would often return to bits and pieces of their conversation together as they went about their tasks for the day.  As they left the cafe and stepped into the flow of people traffic on the sidewalk outside, the sun was just emerging from behind the clouds, and a soft breeze was beginning to blow.  

A Fictitious Conversation

In a quiet café, two friends gather each week for breakfast, to encourage each other in their spiritual life, share insights from the Bible, pray for each other and their families, and nurture their friendship.  They have been doing this for quite some time.   On this morning, after exchanging a few pleasantries and inquiring about each other’s family’s, they settle into this conversation.

Jerry  I’ve been reading a book this week that has really been troubling to me.

Bob  Really, in what way?

Jerry  In terms of my devotional life, and the time I spend with God.

Bob  How so?

Jerry  Well for a lot of years, I’ve had the practice of taking a little time at the end of the day to pray, and reflect on those times during my day when I saw evidence of grace, or God at work in the lives of people around me . . . as well as those times when I could have been more gracious to others, but wasn’t.

Bob  Yeah.  I do something similar.  It can be a very meaningful way to reflect and pray.

Jerry  That’s what I thought too . . . but that was before I knew where this idea came from.

Bob  Why would that matter?  I mean, why wouldn’t you want to take some time to be in prayer like that?

Jerry  Well, I guess it matters, at least to the guy who wrote the book.  Because, you see, the person who seems to have first written this down and urged people to do it was a guy named Ignatius of Loyola.

Bob  Yeah . . . so . . .

Jerry  Well, as it turns out, Ignatius was a Jesuit.  In fact, he was the founder of the order of Jesuits.  And as you know from history, Jesuits have been involved in a lot of pretty horrible things down through the years!

Bob  That’s true . . . as have a lot of people who go by the name of Christian!  Ever read about how many of the followers of Martin Luther treated the Anabaptists?  Besides, people who have been a part of that order have come up with some good and helpful stuff over the years.  There are lots of people I don’t fully agree with about everything that still have some great contributions to make.  And besides, do you really want to define people solely by the actions of others who are a part of the group they belong to?

Jerry  I guess not.  But still, the book I am reading argues that since Ignatius was a Jesuit, and he promoted this practice . . .  well . . . that it would be dangerous to use it.  I mean, couldn’t we be led astray or deceived by this?  Not only that, it's pretty clear that he was a devoted Catholic . . .  and I am a protestant . . . so what I believe does differ in a number of ways!

Bob  Yes it does.  And yet . . .  I suspect that Ignatius probably also paid his bills on time, taught that we should honor our father and mother, and was against stealing and adultery too.  Certainly there are some significant theological points we differ on and which should not be minimized, but there are lots of things that we would very much agree upon as well.

Jerry  But that’s just the problem!  How do I know that something “bad” is not being slipped in along with some of the “good” things we might agree about?

Bob  Sort of like a trojan horse or something?

Jerry  Well, yeah.

Bob Well, aside from the fact that it is always possible that we might not have everything right either, and that maybe we have a few things we could learn too (there is always that possibility you know) . . . to apply a good “protestant” principle here . . . if we are listening carefully to scripture and staying focused on Jesus, we should be able to notice where God has given people good insights to share that we can appreciate, and where there are things we would not be willing to accept.  We make decisions and choices like this all the time.

Jerry  But doesn't that sound kind of risky?

Bob Maybe, but no more so than anything else.  It’s the way we deal with anything we believe, whether it is from a person like Ignatius who may give us some great insights on ways to pay attention to God, or Mother Theresa who models for us what a genuine life of Christian service can look like, or any one of a number of other people who we might not agree with about everything, but who still have significant things to share.

Jerry  But we should consider the source, shouldn’t we?

Bob Yes, we should.  But we also need to understand that people are not fully defined by where they come from, or even what group they are associated with.  “Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?”  “Your master eats with tax collectors and sinners!”

Jerry  Yeah, or when the disciples told Jesus that they had seen someone doing good things in Jesus name, and they told them to stop because they were not part of their particular group . . .

Bob Yes -- Jesus told them to leave them alone.  I wonder why it is so hard for us to believe that God might actually be working in the lives of people who are not just like us . . . or to make it sound like everyone who is not just like us, or sees things just as we do, are part of a great spiritual conspiracy?

Jerry  But there is evil at work in the world though, and it would like nothing more than to lead people astray.  What could be a more effective way of doing this than by creating a bunch of misleading and false religious ideas?

Bob That is quite true.  And it is something we need to take very seriously.  Both the scriptures, and a brief survey of the history of the church, clearly demonstrate what happens when religion becomes twisted and distorted into something destructive in the lives of people.  The Old Testament is full of prophecies that urge us not to lose sight of what is at the core of what we believe by absorbing the practices of the culture God’s people found themselves in that undermined a clear understanding of God’s character, and how we are called to live in response to the love and graciousness that God shares with us.  Jesus is clear about this as well, and in fact, is crucified by those whose religious sensitivities had been distorted in a way that justified crucifixion.  That kind of evil is much more insidious than we image, and is something against which we need to constantly be on guard.  That is the kind of thing that takes shape in the "beastly" forms that major powers in the world unite around, and which the book of Revelation describes.

Jerry  So, you think that the book I’m reading is on the right track then, when it warns about being deceived by taking part in practices like the ones people like Ignatius encouraged?

Bob  Well, do you think that the practice of reflecting on God’s grace and how you did or didn’t respond to it each day is something that leads you into the kind of stuff that the Bible so clearly warns against?

Jerry Well . . . no . . . in fact, it seems like the very kind of thing the Bible encourages us to do.

Bob From all that you have read in scripture, do you honestly think that this would be something that God would not want you to do? 

Jerry   Actually . . . no.

Bob So, why then would you want to stop doing it?  

Jerry  Because the book I am reading suggests that, because it is so clearly described by Ignatius, that there must be something wrong with it, and therefore I can’t safely engage in it.

Bob And did you know that Ignatius also encouraged people to pray, and even to read scripture?  Would you be willing to stop doing those things as well?

Jerry  Of course not!

Bob Why?

Jerry  Because . . . I can’t help the fact that people who I may not fully agree with about everything, or who may belong to a group that sometimes has done things that I can’t support . . . might still get some things right!

Bob Exactly.  The Bible calls that the gift of discernment.  Making Spirit led decisions about what is and is not the right thing to do based on what the scriptures actually do say.

Jerry  Even if the people don’t fully believe everything I believe to be true?

Bob Jerry, are you fully comfortable with every decision or everything that David did in his life?  Or Solomon?  Or many of the others who contributed to the scriptures?  Have you ever noticed how people like Abimelech, someone who clearly was not one of God’s “chosen people” at the time, still managed to have something from God to share with Abraham?  We don’t have to compromise anything to realize that God can give insights to anyone God wants to without getting it approved by us first.

Jerry  Well, so what about the book and the concerns it raises?

Bob To the extent that the book warns us about the reality that we can be led astray by allowing things that are not rooted in the values of God’s Kingdom to take root in our lives, it may have a  point . . . but it sounds to me like it loses track of the real point quite quickly.  Have you ever considered that the book might actually be more of an illustration of the problem than a description of it?

Jerry  Oh . . . yes . . . I see what you mean . . . maybe so.

Bob People often fear what they don’t understand.  I know that sometimes I react that way.  And when that happens, sometimes, our fear of things like being deceived can actually become a barrier to understanding the truth, sometimes to the point that we miss the things that we really should be concerned about.  Then as that fear feeds on itself, we can get stuck in a self-perpetuating loop.

Jerry Yeah, I can see how that happens.  In fact, I have been there myself at various times in my life.  Sometimes it is made even harder if we are feeling somehow threatened in some way, or because we want to protect the things that matter to us.  That's when we can over-react, and sometimes portray people and ideas in ways that are not only unfair, but sometimes even untrue.

Bob Yes.  And once the idea of “conspiracy” has been invoked,  then any attempt at getting people to listen to each other, or simply look at all the facts fairly, or to consider the validity of the assumptions that are often made, runs the risk of simply being seen as part of the conspiracy.

Jerry  And so we can get locked even more tightly into the spiral, and become unable to hear or understand anything that does not already agree with what we have already decided.

Bob Yeah . . . But having said that, we really don’t have to stay there.  I still believe that, if we are willing to be responsive to the Spirit, we can learn to listen to each other fairly and honestly once again.

Jerry  Perhaps if we were willing to take the rhetoric in books like this one down a notch or two , and listen more carefully and non-reactively before we act, or write, or repeat what we have heard . . .

Bob . . .  Then even though we might still not see everything the same way, we might at least come to understand each other better - both in terms of the good things that are shared that we should embrace, as well as the things we may not wish to incorporate into our lives.

Jerry And if we could do that, we might even be able to see more clearly, and discern more wisely, just where the real deceptions are that are working at cross purposes with what Jesus came to show us, and invite us to be a part of.  Otherwise, we’ll likely wind up getting diverted, and miss the forest for the trees.

Bob And maybe even find ourselves working at cross purposes with God?

Jerry Perhaps that is where the real heresy lies?

Bob Perhaps.  Which may be why intentionally keeping Jesus in focus is the best thing we can do when it comes to protecting ourselves from being deceived.

Jerry  Seems easy enough, doesn’t it?

Bob  Wonder why we make it so hard sometimes?

The waitress handed Bob the check, but Jerry insisted on paying for it this time.  They took a few moments to pray for each other, gathered up their things, and stepped out on to the sidewalk, each ready to embrace the day more thoughtfully than when they arrived.